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  • NaughtyEuropean
    started a topic Aggregation of pensions

    Aggregation of pensions

    A query discussed at work today.

    Thanks to EU law, someone who has worked in several EU countries will see the aggregation of his working periods in different national systems and pro-rata benefits from each country for pension purposes. See State pensions abroad - Your Europe

    How will this be affected by Brexit? In the computation of my European pension, will the period in the UK only be counted until Brexit date, ignoring the years post-Brexit? And how is the computation of my UK pension affected by years of service in Europe before and after Brexit?

    Thanks.

  • Site Admin
    replied
    Originally posted by ClaudLatina View Post

    I am not an expert in these matters so if you wish to know more I suggest that you consult with an Italian-UK benefit expert.

    Best,
    I can see all this being a minefield, and I can't see there being many experts on this subject, at least not at the moment, maybe over time.

    Leave a comment:


  • ClaudLatina
    replied
    Originally posted by PorkScratcher View Post
    Any Italian speakers here who are also fluent with "burocratese", "politichese" and "legalese"?

    Reading [1] and [2], it seems to me that NI contributions for pension purposes can be exported to/from Italy/UK even after 31.12.2020, but the devil in the detail and I haven't had the time to read the "Circolare INPS".

    [1] Brexit e prestazioni previdenziali dal 1.1.2021. Le istruzioni INPS - FISCOeTASSE.com

    [2] Prestazioni INPS dopo la Brexit: le regole applicabili - PMI.it
    Dunque, i periodi di assicurazione, occupazione, attività lavorativa autonoma e residenza completati prima prima o dopo la fine del periodo di transizione (31 dicembre 2020), sono presi in considerazione ai fini della totalizzazione internazionale.
    I read this in the same way as you. It says that the pension accrued in the UK can be part of the total aggregation when a person is not yet receiving a pension from the UK or Italy, this is consistent with the response you have received from the EU commission.


    Per quanto riguarda i titolari di prestazione pensionistica italiana residenti nel Regno Unito prima del 2021, si continua ad applicare l’inesportabilità dell’integrazione al trattamento minimo e della maggiorazione sociale. Ai soggetti che si sono trasferiti dal primo gennaio, e che diventano poi titolari di prestazione pensionistica italiana, si applica invece il Protocollo attuale e quindi tali soggetti possono beneficiare sia dell’integrazione minimo sia della maggiorazione sociale, pur se residenti nel Regno Unito (in quanto Paese terzo).
    The above means that...nevertheless there is a difference in terms of ' trattamento minimo e della maggiorazione sociale' for those who are already receiving a pension from Italy and moved to the UK before 31 Dec 2020 and those who are not yet receiving a pension from Italy and move/d to the UK after 1st Jan 2021. Only the latter will benefit from the current Protocol.

    I have not read the details of the INPS 'Prassi - Circolare
    Numero 53 del 06/04/2021'

    I am not an expert in these matters so if you wish to know more I suggest that you consult with an Italian-UK benefit expert.

    Best,

    Leave a comment:


  • Site Admin
    replied
    Originally posted by PorkScratcher View Post
    Any Italian speakers here who are also fluent with "burocratese", "politichese" and "legalese"?

    Reading [1] and [2], it seems to me that NI contributions for pension purposes can be exported to/from Italy/UK even after 31.12.2020, but the devil in the detail and I haven't had the time to read the "Circolare INPS".

    [1] Brexit e prestazioni previdenziali dal 1.1.2021. Le istruzioni INPS - FISCOeTASSE.com

    [2] Prestazioni INPS dopo la Brexit: le regole applicabili - PMI.it
    Morning,

    Maybe ClaudLatina?

    Leave a comment:


  • PorkScratcher
    replied
    Any Italian speakers here who are also fluent with "burocratese", "politichese" and "legalese"?

    Reading [1] and [2], it seems to me that NI contributions for pension purposes can be exported to/from Italy/UK even after 31.12.2020, but the devil in the detail and I haven't had the time to read the "Circolare INPS".

    [1] Brexit e prestazioni previdenziali dal 1.1.2021. Le istruzioni INPS - FISCOeTASSE.com

    [2] Prestazioni INPS dopo la Brexit: le regole applicabili - PMI.it

    Leave a comment:


  • NaughtyEuropean
    replied
    It will also affect those that have accrued pension rights in another EU country *before* migrating to the UK (this is my case for instance) for the computation of their EU pension when they retire. If this protocol did not exist (and yes let us see how it will be implemented) the only way for such a person to maintain their EU pension rights would be to return to the EU.

    Leave a comment:


  • Site Admin
    replied
    Originally posted by PorkScratcher View Post

    The issue will also affect EU citizens who have paid state pension contributions in UK before and/or after the cut-off date of 31.12.2020 and then migrate (back) to another EU country and intend to retire there.

    For example, and correct me if I'm wrong, in Italy one needs 35 years of pension contributions to retire with state pension. I, for example, have 19 years of contributions in UK. If the principle of aggregation of periods were not to be applied for periods after 1.1.2021, I would never get the required 35 years to receive a pension in Italy, assuming I keep on paying contributions for the next 16 years (although I could possibly receive my UK pension over there, but that's a different story).
    Well, as I said above, I only know how it works from the UK side of things, I don't know the rules in other EU countries, for example, in the UK, you need 30 years (and this also changes depending on your age, as different rules have applied at different times) for a full state pension, but you can get some state pension if you have at least 10 years' NICs, even when not a full one, so I don't know whether the 35 years you refer to above, are also to get a full pension, but you'd still get some pension if you had less than 35 years, and how many years is the minimum to get something, if you see what I mean. Obviously regardless of receiving your UK state pension.

    Leave a comment:


  • PorkScratcher
    replied
    Originally posted by Site Admin View Post

    This issue would only affect those people who worked in another EU country and who, by the time they reach retirement age, haven't got at least 10 years' worth of NICs in the UK.
    The issue will also affect EU citizens who have paid state pension contributions in UK before and/or after the cut-off date of 31.12.2020 and then migrate (back) to another EU country and intend to retire there.

    For example, and correct me if I'm wrong, in Italy one needs 35 years of pension contributions to retire with state pension. I, for example, have 19 years of contributions in UK. If the principle of aggregation of periods were not to be applied for periods after 1.1.2021, I would never get the required 35 years to receive a pension in Italy, assuming I keep on paying contributions for the next 16 years (although I could possibly receive my UK pension over there, but that's a different story).
    Last edited by PorkScratcher; 22-01-2021, 10:48 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • PorkScratcher
    replied
    Originally posted by Site Admin View Post

    Morning,

    Just to clarify, are you referring to the deal that would allow the aggregation of pensions, as the one not yet ratified?
    I'm referring to the so-called Trade Deal, signed on 24.12,2020, approved by the UK parliament on 30.12.2020 but not yet official passed by the European Parliament. There's no specific deal for social security cooperation; however the so-called Trade Deal also includes a "PROTOCOL ON SOCIAL SECURITY COORDINATION" (page 1132-1163 of [1])

    [1]
    Link
    Last edited by PorkScratcher; 22-01-2021, 10:46 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Site Admin
    replied
    Originally posted by NaughtyEuropean View Post
    Thank you very much: this sounds good! I was getting more and more pessimistic about remaining in the UK after Brexit, but now I know that I will only be indirectly affected like the whole population (through the effect of trade barriers) but not suffer in a direct unjust way. Many thanks!
    This issue would only affect those people who worked in another EU country and who, by the time they reach retirement age, haven't got at least 10 years' worth of NICs in the UK, which is the minimum required to get any state pension. Obviously with only 10 years, you would only get a fraction of the full pension, but the point is, you wouldn't need to rely on aggregation with another EU country if you have 10+ years' NICs in the UK, at least from the UK perspective, so the longest you stay and pay NICs in the UK, the better, and NICs are also credited when you are claming benefits, not just when you work. Obvioiusly I don't know what the rules are in other countries, such as how many years other countries require in order for you to get some state pension from that country without aggregation, whether their state pensions are similar to the UK, etc. so this is only from the UK perspective.

    Leave a comment:


  • Site Admin
    replied
    Originally posted by PorkScratcher View Post
    NaughtyEuropean I would still be cautious and let the changes trickle down a bit before we celebrate too soon. Technically speaking, the so called "deal" hasn't even been ratified by the European Parliament yet. Then, we'll need to see how member states will implement the new regulations. Let's keep this thread open and "work-in-progress".
    Morning,

    Just to clarify, are you referring to the deal that would allow the aggregation of pensions, as the one not yet ratified?

    Leave a comment:


  • PorkScratcher
    replied
    NaughtyEuropean I would still be cautious and let the changes trickle down a bit before we celebrate too soon. Technically speaking, the so called "deal" hasn't even been ratified by the European Parliament yet. Then, we'll need to see how member states will implement the new regulations. Let's keep this thread open and "work-in-progress".

    Leave a comment:


  • NaughtyEuropean
    replied
    Thank you very much: this sounds good! I was getting more and more pessimistic about remaining in the UK after Brexit, but now I know that I will only be indirectly affected like the whole population (through the effect of trade barriers) but not suffer in a direct unjust way. Many thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • Site Admin
    replied
    Originally posted by PorkScratcher View Post
    Site Admin ClaudLatina Aron F I have just received this reply from Europe Direct:



    Is this something that would put our mind at rest? Is there anything that I can ask them to expand?
    Hello there,

    That was very good news and such a quick response!

    Many thanks for taking the trouble with all this, it's very much appreciated.

    At the moment, I can't think of anything, but I'm sure something will come up at some point.

    Leave a comment:


  • PorkScratcher
    replied
    Site Admin ClaudLatina Aron F I have just received this reply from Europe Direct:

    Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre.

    Regarding your enquiry, a person will not lose the periods worked in the EU and in the UK, which will be taken into consideration when their benefits will be determined and calculated (e.g. unemployment benefits, old-age and survivors' pensions).

    Periods worked in the UK and the EU will also be taken into account when determining a person's entitlement to invalidity benefits.

    For more information, please see below:
    Press corner | European Commission
    Is this something that would put our mind at rest? Is there anything that I can ask them to expand?

    Leave a comment:

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