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EU Settlement Scheme : Re-applying for pre-settled status and evidences required

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  • frank
    replied
    Hello Ijk,

    Originally posted by ijk View Post
    There is a risk in applying for the pre-settled status again as it may flip the situation and all of a sudden one can become stateless!!.
    Here i disagree.

    let us discuss the relevant text in chapter "Further applications" page 52 detailed:

    "if the earlier application resulted in pre-settled status being granted, the further application must be considered in the normal way"
    - I think we both understand this senntence in the same way, it means our new applications will be processed normal (not voided and so on)

    "If you grant settled status where the applicant has pre-settled status, then it will vary (replace) the earlier grant of pre-settled status."
    - states that if the outcome of the new application would be "SETTLED" IT WOULD REPLACE the old application and we would have settled. Not our case because we have not evidence for so long

    Now it comes the repetition of the above sentence, but with "pre-settled":
    If you grant pre-settled status where the applicant has pre-settled status, then it will vary (replace) the earlier grant of pre-settled status.
    - states that if the outcome of the new application would be "PRE-SETTLED" IT WOULD REPLACE the old application and we would have pre-settled again. Thats our very probable case.

    !!! There is no 3rd repetiotion like !!!:
    If you give refused status where the applicant has pre-settled status, then it will vary (replace) the earlier grant of pre-settled status.

    !!! There is also no general sentence like:
    The outcome of the new application will replace the outcome of the old application.

    Under te bottom line:
    Only if the they grant "SETTLED" or "PRE-SETTLED" status for the new application, only in those cases the old application outcome is going to be replaced. Otherwise, the old application outcome ist not going to be replaced and the grant (pre-settled) stays.

    The following sentences describe how the dates will be changed if the grant is replaced. Here I think we have the same understanding again.



    When you are bit IT guy like me, here in Java:

    if (you grant settled status where the applicant has pre-settled status)
    {
    ...it will vary (replace) the earlier grant of pre-settled status;
    }

    else if (you grant pre-settled status where the applicant has pre-settled status)
    {
    ...it will vary (replace) the earlier grant of pre-settled status;
    }

    else
    {
    ...NOTHING HAPPENS. THE OLD OUTCOME WONT BE REPLACED -> old pre-settled remains;
    }

    Nice to discuss the stuff with you.

    Leave a comment:


  • ijk
    replied
    I am now considering to reapply too for a new extended pre-settled
    Dear frank , before re-applying, you may want to call EUSS and ask them if by any chance your 2nd application for pre-settle status gets rejected then what will happen to your 1st application? If they say that your 1st successful application will also get rejected if the 2nd application gets rejected then it is up to you what to do.

    I have been calling EUSS since last 20 days, 2 times every day, asking the same question - "What will happen to my 1st successful application if my 2nd application gets rejected". On this question, I got different different answers. 99% of the advisors on the call told me that if the 2nd application is rejected then it will replace the 1st application. This means, it will also reject the 1st application and you will become stateless in UK. I also asked the advisor on the call to refer to the page 52 of the EUSS Guidance Me and the advisor both went through the entire page reading and explaining each other the scenarios. However, the very hot scenario which we are discussing here is not mentioned in the Guidance but only one line - "An applicant can only have one grant of limited or indefinite leave to enter or remain under the Immigration Rules at any one time". Advisor on the call also agreed with me. So, he put me on hold, confirmed with his supervisor, came back on the call and confirmed that if the 2nd application gets rejected then it will replace the 1st application.

    @Ijk: why do you want EUSS to resolve this before 30-June-2021? We are fine, first we have the old pre-settled and then the new one.
    There is a risk in applying for the pre-settled status again as it may flip the situation and all of a sudden one can become stateless!!

    One of the advisor on the call told me that it is a gamble to re-apply for the pre-settle status as you may lose your 1st pre-settle status if the 2nd application gets rejected. Hence in such a confusing situation, it is always advisable to have this scenario addressed by EUSS, explain why the advisors are giving such information which is not documented in the Guidance, and get that in writing/documented that even though the 2nd application for pre-settle status gets rejected, it will not impact the 1st successful application. If this happens before 30-June-2021 then there is no risk of re-applying. But, if this is addressed after 30-June-2021, then even if someone wants to re-apply, what is the use, as the deadline to apply for it is 30-June-2021. Isn't it?

    My concern is not only about re-applying for pre-settle status but also to know why the EUSS advisors on the call are giving such information which is not documented. Are they not well trained? Don't they have sufficient, correct information to pass on? If by any chance, they are passing wrong information to the users on the call then should it not be escalated? Shouldn't we get in to the root of this and find out why such a contradiction in the provided information? My lesson learnt from this incident is that I should not trust on the advisors on the call until I have that information in writing/documented by EUSS.

    Again few years down the line, for applying settle status, people will call EUSS and trust on what the advisors on the call are telling, based on the received information apply and when the application gets rejected, then realize that information received was not correct. No body would want this to happen with the people. Isn't it?

    From my experience I can say that the information/rules change from advisor to advisor on the call. Would you like to take the risk for re-applying?

    I am tired of this EUSS and with their confusing answers. Hence I handed this matter over to the UKCEN lawyers to get in to the root.

    Leave a comment:


  • frank
    replied
    Originally posted by ijk View Post

    The expiry date of their pre-settled status will be five years from the date of decision on the further application for pre-settled status.
    !! This is a very hot issue !! I have read the original document many times and seen nothing else as you (Admin). So because gov lawyers make no mistakes, the only explanation is that they must have done it this way to comply with EU right and the EU-UK Withdrawal agreement. I am now considering to reapply too for a new extended pre-settled. And millions other who have evidence for end December 2020 can do it too. Now we can bet what is really going to happen: my bet: I think ijks, my and the applications of hopefully other millions of re-applicants will be put on hold, and the gov wil reset the expiration date of all pre-settled to, say, August 2026, when the scheme has been closed. Otherwise, the lawyers savage the gov because of the apparent unequality between who re-applied and who didn't and because the gov advised the people to apply soon, but didn't advise the people to re-apply in June.

    @Ijk: why do you want EUSS to resolve this before 30-June-2021? We are fine, first we have the old pre-settled and then the new one.

    Leave a comment:


  • ijk
    replied
    Afternoon,

    I have received your email. Will forward an enquiry about this as we don't want people getting the wrong info.
    Thank you so much for taking it ahead.

    Can we expect EUSS to resolve this before 30-June-2021 ? Otherwise, it will be of no use after 30-June-2021

    Leave a comment:


  • Site Admin
    replied
    Originally posted by frank View Post

    Hello, there is one point: if this would work, all the millions people with pre-settled would do so. It would mean all the people with pre settled would extend their pre-settled until at least June 2026 this way. I have no clue about law, but from logical point of view your second application would be voided and tyour existing pre-settled would continue. This would only work if you have been out more then 2 years, which is in your case not possible.
    Actually, this provision is allowed for by Home Office themselves, and no, your second application is not voided, as noted here: Multiple applications and re-applying

    ...where you'll see:


    On page 51 of the EUSS Guidance you'll find:

    Further applications

    An applicant can only have one grant of limited or indefinite leave to enter or remain under the Immigration Rules at any one time. This means that, where a further valid application under the EU Settlement Scheme has been made after an earlier application under it has been decided:
    • if the earlier application resulted in refusal, rejection, withdrawal, treatment as void or in any outcome other than a grant of leave under the scheme, then the latest application must be considered in the normal way
    • if the earlier application resulted in settled status being granted, the further application must be treated as void
    • if the earlier application resulted in pre-settled status being granted, the further application must be considered in the normal way
    If you grant settled status where the applicant has pre-settled status, then it will vary (replace) the earlier grant of pre-settled status.

    If you grant pre-settled status where the applicant has pre-settled status, then it will vary (replace) the earlier grant of pre-settled status. The date of the first grant of presettled status will remain the start date of their pre-settled status. The expiry date of their pre-settled status will be five years from the date of decision on the further application for pre-settled status.
    That's all written in BW in the guidance. And no, if you have been out for two years, then your pre-settled status would have lapsed, so in that case, it wouldn't work, since you would no longer have a valid status to extend in the first place. I hope this clarifies matters.

    Leave a comment:


  • Site Admin
    replied
    Originally posted by ijk View Post

    Hello, I have sent you an email with the details. I would really appreciate you can go through it and do the needful.
    Thank you so much for your great efforts !
    Afternoon,

    I have received your email. Will forward an enquiry about this as we don't want people getting the wrong info.

    Leave a comment:


  • frank
    replied
    Originally posted by ijk View Post

    I want to re-apply for the pre-settled status. I am planning to re-apply for it in June 2021. Am I eligible to re-apply for the pre-settled status?!
    Hello, there is one point: if this would work, all the millions people with pre-settled would do so. It would mean all the people with pre settled would extend their pre-settled until at least June 2026 this way. I have no clue about law, but from logical point of view your second application would be voided and tyour existing pre-settled would continue. This would only work if you have been out more then 2 years, which is in your case not possible.

    Leave a comment:


  • ijk
    replied
    I do get a chance to speak to them live online during our regular monthly meetings, as well as to contact them via email, the people I'm in touch with are the more senior EUSS people as opposed to the ones who answer the phones. In fact, one of them is the Head of the EUSS team, so I should think their responses are accurate, and they do match up with the written guidance I've just quoted above. There seems to be a bit of an internal communication issue there if the people answering the phone are saying things that contradict the guidance. If you want me to make enquiries about this you may wish to drop an email to admin@ukcen.com providing as much detail as you can regarding the calls. If you have details of the person(s) you spoke to, you may want to include them (privately in your email, not here), otherwise the dates and times of your calls.
    Hello, I have sent you an email with the details. I would really appreciate you can go through it and do the needful.
    Thank you so much for your great efforts !

    Leave a comment:


  • Site Admin
    replied
    Originally posted by ijk View Post
    I find it very odd. Why do they need the evidence from Dec 2020? Will the evidence from April 2021 not enough to prove that I have not broken the continuous residence? Is there any mistake in my understanding here? Will the residence proof for April-2021 work in this case?
    Here it does sound like they only thought in terms of "before the end of last year and no more than 6 months ago" which, by now, would only leave the last few weeks in December, and this was also my original interpretation of the requirement, however, as you can see, there is also the option to provide evidence for 2021 to prove that there's been no continuous absence of 6 months or longer, which makes perfect sense when you look at it this way.

    Leave a comment:


  • Site Admin
    replied
    Originally posted by ijk View Post

    Thanks a lot for your reply. I really appreciate it! So, If I understand this correctly, my first residence evidence for the month of Oct 2020 would confirm I was here within 6 months of 31 December and so confirms my eligibility to apply for pre-settled status. However, since I am applying in June 2021 which is beyond 6 months from Oct 2020, my second residence evidence for the month of April 2021 (which is within 6 months from Oct 2020) confirms I was not absent from the UK long enough for continuity of residence to be broken.

    Hence conclusion is that if I apply with these 2 residence evidences, 1st for the month of Oct 2020 and 2nd for the month of April 2021, will not cause any issues regarding my eligibility front and will make me eligible for pre-settled status. Is my understanding correct?
    Morning,

    That's pretty much the idea as per my example above and their response.

    Leave a comment:


  • ijk
    replied
    Originally posted by EUSS team responded
    Applicants to the scheme should show that they were resident in the UK by 31 December 2020 and that their continuity of residence was not broken at that date. This means that they should evidence they were resident in the UK during the 6 months prior to the end of the transition period (i.e. evidence from between June and December).

    Whether they then need to provide further evidence from 2021 would depend on the age of the evidence provided from 2020. For example, anything that showed residence in December would confirm eligibility for pre-settled status for any applications received 6 months post that date. However, if it were dated June then we would only be able to accept this as evidence of residence up until December. It would not be sufficient to confirm unbroken residence for anyone who applied after that and so they would be required to provide further evidence from 2021 showing there was no break in continuity of residence.

    In the example above, residence from October would confirm they were here within 6 months of 31 December and so confirm their eligibility to apply. However, as more than six months has passed they should also provide a piece of evidence from 2021 to confirm they were not absent from the UK long enough for continuity of residence to be broken.


    So, once more, what you heard over the phone appears to be different to what it should be, bearing in mind I got the above in writing, and I've even got the name of the person who sent me the email quoted above.
    Thanks a lot for your reply. I really appreciate it! So, If I understand this correctly, my first residence evidence for the month of Oct 2020 would confirm I was here within 6 months of 31 December and so confirms my eligibility to apply for pre-settled status. However, since I am applying in June 2021 which is beyond 6 months from Oct 2020, my second residence evidence for the month of April 2021 (which is within 6 months from Oct 2020) confirms I was not absent from the UK long enough for continuity of residence to be broken.

    Hence conclusion is that if I apply with these 2 residence evidences, 1st for the month of Oct 2020 and 2nd for the month of April 2021, will not cause any issues regarding my eligibility front and will make me eligible for pre-settled status. Is my understanding correct?

    Leave a comment:


  • Site Admin
    replied
    Originally posted by ijk View Post
    Also, can you please also comment on my first question, which month's residence proof I need to give in order to prove my residence before 31 Dec 2020 and residence for 2021?

    When I called EUSS and told them that I was outside of UK from 1-Nov-2020 till 21-April-2021 (Total 172 days) and I want to apply for the pre-settled status. So, the documents which I am going to provide is the utility bill for the month of Oct-2020 to prove my residence before 31-Dec-2020 and another document which I am going to provide is utility bill for the month of April-2021 to prove my residence for 2021. But, I was told that to prove my residence in 2021, I will need to attach residence proof for the month of December 2020. If I do not have residence proof for Dec 2020 then better I should not apply for it as there are chances that my application will get rejected and if so, my first application will also get rejected with it. What EUSS says, since I am applying in June 2021, they need the residence proof 6 months before that.

    I find it very odd. Why do they need the evidence from Dec 2020? Will the evidence from April 2021 not enough to prove that I have not broken the continuous residence? Is there any mistake in my understanding here? Will the residence proof for April-2021 work in this case?
    This was the subject of one of my enquiries as noted above:


    Originally posted by Site Admin asked
    If someone was here last October and has proof of travel, statements, etc. Then came back in January 2021 and again in May 2021, and has stayed here since, will they be eligible to apply? The day in October is over 6 months ago, but, if we count from October, they have been here in October, January, and May. In the last 8 months, they have evidence of being here for 3 months, and if they stay here throughout the next 3 months, they will have been here for 6 months within an 11 month period. The way the above has been worded, they may think they are not eligible because, while they have been here in the last 6 months, the last time they were here prior to 31 December 2021 is more than 6 months ago, hence, they have not been here on a day that is both less than 6 months ago, and also before the end of 2020.

    Am I right in saying the wording above means that, if someone was here over 6 months ago, they can provide additional proof of being here less than 6 months ago, even if that’s in 2021?
    Originally posted by EUSS team responded
    Applicants to the scheme should show that they were resident in the UK by 31 December 2020 and that their continuity of residence was not broken at that date. This means that they should evidence they were resident in the UK during the 6 months prior to the end of the transition period (i.e. evidence from between June and December).

    Whether they then need to provide further evidence from 2021 would depend on the age of the evidence provided from 2020. For example, anything that showed residence in December would confirm eligibility for pre-settled status for any applications received 6 months post that date. However, if it were dated June then we would only be able to accept this as evidence of residence up until December. It would not be sufficient to confirm unbroken residence for anyone who applied after that and so they would be required to provide further evidence from 2021 showing there was no break in continuity of residence.

    In the example above, residence from October would confirm they were here within 6 months of 31 December and so confirm their eligibility to apply. However, as more than six months has passed they should also provide a piece of evidence from 2021 to confirm they were not absent from the UK long enough for continuity of residence to be broken.
    So, once more, what you heard over the phone appears to be different to what it should be, bearing in mind I got the above in writing, and I've even got the name of the person who sent me the email quoted above.

    Leave a comment:


  • Site Admin
    replied

    Originally posted by ijk View Post
    One needs to be very careful while applying for pre-settled status 2nd time.
    As above, that's not the case, and our lawyer has also confirmed it. Do bear in mind that pre-settled status only lapses after spending TWO YEARS OR LONGER, out of the UK, or it can be revoked due to criminality. If neither of these events has happened, then the previously granted leave to remain is still valid.


    Originally posted by ijk View Post
    Do you get a chance to call them and discussed this, as you being a lawyer they may tell you the truth. I am extremely sorry to trouble you. If whatever they are saying is correct then all those who are applying 2nd time, are putting their UK residence in danger.
    I do get a chance to speak to them live online during our regular monthly meetings, as well as to contact them via email, the people I'm in touch with are the more senior EUSS people as opposed to the ones who answer the phones. In fact, one of them is the Head of the EUSS team, so I should think their responses are accurate, and they do match up with the written guidance I've just quoted above. There seems to be a bit of an internal communication issue there if the people answering the phone are saying things that contradict the guidance. If you want me to make enquiries about this you may wish to drop an email to admin@ukcen.com providing as much detail as you can regarding the calls. If you have details of the person(s) you spoke to, you may want to include them (privately in your email, not here), otherwise the dates and times of your calls.

    Leave a comment:


  • Site Admin
    replied
    Originally posted by ijk View Post
    Thanks for your reply. I called EUSS couple of times and every time when I sought clarification on this, I was told that if the 2nd pre-settled application is rejected then it will also reject the first successful application. All the EUSS advisor on call will not give wrong information.
    Morning,

    This is very concerning, they do appear to be providing the wrong information, since this contradicts both what the written EUSS guidance states and what I have got time and again from the EUSS team.

    Originally posted by ijk View Post
    But, the strange thing is that they have not mentioned this rule in their handbook.
    They do say the exact opposite in the guidance:


    On page 51 of the EUSS Guidance you'll find:

    Further applications

    An applicant can only have one grant of limited or indefinite leave to enter or remain under the Immigration Rules at any one time. This means that, where a further valid application under the EU Settlement Scheme has been made after an earlier application under it has been decided:
    • if the earlier application resulted in refusal, rejection, withdrawal, treatment as void or in any outcome other than a grant of leave under the scheme, then the latest application must be considered in the normal way
    • if the earlier application resulted in settled status being granted, the further application must be treated as void
    • if the earlier application resulted in pre-settled status being granted, the further application must be considered in the normal way
    If you grant settled status where the applicant has pre-settled status, then it will vary (replace) the earlier grant of pre-settled status.

    If you grant pre-settled status where the applicant has pre-settled status, then it will vary (replace) the earlier grant of pre-settled status. The date of the first grant of presettled status will remain the start date of their pre-settled status. The expiry date of their pre-settled status will be five years from the date of decision on the further application for pre-settled status.


    Leave a comment:


  • ClaudLatina
    replied
    Originally posted by ijk View Post
    Thanks for your reply. I called EUSS couple of times and every time when I sought clarification on this, I was told that if the 2nd pre-settled application is rejected then it will also reject the first successful application. All the EUSS advisor on call will not give wrong information. But, the strange thing is that they have not mentioned this rule in their handbook. One needs to be very careful while applying for pre-settled status 2nd time. Do you get a chance to call them and discussed this, as you being a lawyer they may tell you the truth. I am extremely sorry to trouble you. If whatever they are saying is correct then all those who are applying 2nd time, are putting their UK residence in danger.

    Also, can you please also comment on my first question, which month's residence proof I need to give in order to prove my residence before 31 Dec 2020 and residence for 2021?

    When I called EUSS and told them that I was outside of UK from 1-Nov-2020 till 21-April-2021 (Total 172 days) and I want to apply for the pre-settled status. So, the documents which I am going to provide is the utility bill for the month of Oct-2020 to prove my residence before 31-Dec-2020 and another document which I am going to provide is utility bill for the month of April-2021 to prove my residence for 2021. But, I was told that to prove my residence in 2021, I will need to attach residence proof for the month of December 2020. If I do not have residence proof for Dec 2020 then better I should not apply for it as there are chances that my application will get rejected and if so, my first application will also get rejected with it. What EUSS says, since I am applying in June 2021, they need the residence proof 6 months before that.

    I find it very odd. Why do they need the evidence from Dec 2020? Will the evidence from April 2021 not enough to prove that I have not broken the continuous residence? Is there any mistake in my understanding here? Will the residence proof for April-2021 work in this case?
    Louis M (lawyer) could you kindly help with the above questions? Many thanks.

    Leave a comment:

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