Please support us so we can help others

>> CLICK HERE TO START A NEW POST <<

(you need to log in to post)

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

MN1 application for UK born child to parent who subsequently got EUSS

Collapse
X
Collapse
Who has read this thread:
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • MN1 application for UK born child to parent who subsequently got EUSS

    Hiya,

    It is a total minefield so I am hoping for some clarification.

    I have a child born in the UK (2017). I am from an EU country and got the EU settled status in 2019, as well as my child.

    I have been living and working in the UK since 2009 and excersiced my treaty rights, however as I did receive benefits, child won't meet the critera for automatic citizenship.

    Do I understand it correctly that I can apply for him to be registered to become British as per "Section 1(3) -A child born in the UK whose parents are not British citizens and were not settled in the UK will have an entitlement to register when one of their parents become settled in the UK or become British citizens"?

    And I can apply for this on the MN1 form only for him, without me needing to apply for the British citizenship myself, right???
    And I assume it doesn't matter that he is only 4.5 and won't have lived in the UK for 5 years yet?

    And I will only need my reg number for the EUSS to prove his eligibility, right?
    What other evidences will I need to provide with his application?
    Anything else I need to be mindful of?
    Thank you so much!

    A very stressed mum here

  • #2
    Hi,
    I would need help to interpret this guide as it isn't clear, yet again.

    In the Nationality Forms Guide pg.19 (
    Link) it says:

    Consent to the application

    If the applicant is below 18 years old, consent must be provided. In the case of
    widowed, divorced or separated parents, this only applies to one parent. If the child’s
    parents were not married, only the mother needs to consent. Where one parent has
    died only the consent of the surviving parent is needed.

    We require the consent of all those with parental responsibility for the child. If only
    one parent has consented explain why. If it is not convenient for one of the parents
    to sign the form, consent canbe provided in a separate letter.

    MN1 applications
    For section 3(5) it is a legal requirement that both parents consent to the application.
    In the case of widowed, divorced or separated parents, this only applies to one
    parent. If the child’s parents were not married, only the mother needs to consent
    unless citizenship is being applied for on the basis of a British citizen father, when he
    will need to consent.

    The consent of both parents to the application is also a legal requirement for section
    4D. Where one parent has died only the consent of the surviving parent is needed.
    The Home Secretary may also waive this requirement in exceptional cases.



    SO. It is unclear to me what I need.
    My child is under 18. We parents were NOT married, we separated obviously - so according to the above, only the mother needs to consent.
    However, the father does have parental rights in the countries we are from as he is on the birth certificate. In England, under the law there, he would have parental rights, however, we are living in Scotland, and according to Scotts Law (Family Law (Scotland) Act 2006) he has NO parental rights. Scotland has jurisdiction in our case as we have been habitually residents here since 2009. I have a letter form a Solicitor to confirm this, which I used for traveling.
    So above it states that all those with PRs need to consent, which is kind of contradictory to what is written before. So what applies to me????

    Thank you so much!
    M

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Monka View Post
      Hiya,

      It is a total minefield so I am hoping for some clarification.

      I have a child born in the UK (2017). I am from an EU country and got the EU settled status in 2019, as well as my child.

      Afternoon,

      I've consolidated your two posts regarding the MN1 application into one thread to keep it all together.


      Originally posted by Monka View Post
      I have been living and working in the UK since 2009 and excersiced my treaty rights, however as I did receive benefits, child won't meet the critera for automatic citizenship.

      Are you sure about this? Also I note you have another post where you mention a 17 year old. I'm assuming this is a different child, as the 17 year old would have been born abroad if you've only been here since 2009.

      Receiving benefits doesn't automatically mean not having exercised treaty rights, I'd suggest looking carefully into this before going ahead with the MN1 application, since it could save you a grand!

      In order to be sure he's not born British, kindly provide us with full details of what you were doing in the UK for the 5 years before your child's birth.

      I am the Site Manager and Webmaster, please refer to our Admin Team, Roles and Responsibilities. If you think we have helped in any way, please support us so we can keep helping others secure their status, it is now more important than ever now EEA nationals are subject to the same immigration requirements as non EEA nationals and require proof of valid status in the UK.

      Comment


      • #4

        Originally posted by Monka View Post
        Do I understand it correctly that I can apply for him to be registered to become British as per "Section 1(3) -A child born in the UK whose parents are not British citizens and were not settled in the UK will have an entitlement to register when one of their parents become settled in the UK or become British citizens"?

        And I can apply for this on the MN1 form only for him, without me needing to apply for the British citizenship myself, right???

        A child born in the UK is entitled to be registered as soon as one parent becomes settled here as you quote, it is only children born abroad who require one parent to also apply for citizenship (or have prevoiusly applied).


        Originally posted by Monka View Post
        And I assume it doesn't matter that he is only 4.5 and won't have lived in the UK for 5 years yet?

        There is no minimum age for registration.


        Originally posted by Monka View Post
        And I will only need my reg number for the EUSS to prove his eligibility, right?
        What other evidences will I need to provide with his application?
        Anything else I need to be mindful of?
        Thank you so much!

        A very stressed mum here
        You may want to look here: Registration of UK born children

        The registration of children born in the UK is quite simple and I've never seen a refusal, so there's no reason to stress. However, as per my previous response, as you say you've been here since 2009 and child is just 41/2 years, it's worth exploring the possibility that he may be British before proceeding with thi$ co$tly application!

        I am the Site Manager and Webmaster, please refer to our Admin Team, Roles and Responsibilities. If you think we have helped in any way, please support us so we can keep helping others secure their status, it is now more important than ever now EEA nationals are subject to the same immigration requirements as non EEA nationals and require proof of valid status in the UK.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Monka View Post
          SO. It is unclear to me what I need.
          My child is under 18. We parents were NOT married, we separated obviously - so according to the above, only the mother needs to consent.
          However, the father does have parental rights in the countries we are from as he is on the birth certificate. In England, under the law there, he would have parental rights, however, we are living in Scotland, and according to Scotts Law (Family Law (Scotland) Act 2006) he has NO parental rights. Scotland has jurisdiction in our case as we have been habitually residents here since 2009. I have a letter form a Solicitor to confirm this, which I used for traveling.
          So above it states that all those with PRs need to consent, which is kind of contradictory to what is written before. So what applies to me????

          Thank you so much!
          M
          The post I linked above says:
          Absent parents - what happens if the other parent does not sign the form?

          Answer from one of our lawyers:

          The Home Office are decent about this. You can explain why the father isn't signing the form and it is likely to be okay.

          But let's get the possibility of him being British out of the way first!

          I am the Site Manager and Webmaster, please refer to our Admin Team, Roles and Responsibilities. If you think we have helped in any way, please support us so we can keep helping others secure their status, it is now more important than ever now EEA nationals are subject to the same immigration requirements as non EEA nationals and require proof of valid status in the UK.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank you so very much for the replies. I am so so stressed about this as the more I read, the less I seem to know and understand.
            So yes, we are talking about two separate children here.

            So the MN1 form question relates to my UK born 4 year old. His father is NOT on the birth certificate, so this should be strainght forward.
            I spoke to the Passport Office and the advisor said as I didn't have every year in the 5 yrs prior to his birth more than 8k income and as I was on some benefits, he will not be be eligible for the passport as British. They also refered me to the Treaty Rights document Link
            It does say no receipt of benefits. Of course if he were eligible that would be fab, as I would happily save 1000£, however at the moment the MN1 seems a more straight forward thing.

            So I moved to the UK as a single parent with my now 17 yo in 2009. I have been living here ever since. I was working: was employed, or employed and self-employed, studied too (part time courses in 2014/2015, got SAAS as a Scottish resident and fee paid partialy by myself, but didn't have that whatever health insurance as I was working and paying NI and I never knew I would have needed one, after all I was habitually resident in the UK). I have P60, self assesment, the NI contributions since 2009. But I was on lower income, so had tax credits and housing benefit some of the time. My income was around £8000 in 16, and over £11000 in 2017. However the years before that it was below £8000.

            Son was born in 2017. We got settled status in 2019.
            Don't know if this helps.


            The consent question relates to my 17 yo daughter. But her situation is way more complex. She was born in Germany in 2004 out of wedlock. She is German as well as Hungarian. I got separated from Dad and we moved to the UK/Scotland in 2009. Father stayed in Germany. Under Scotts Law he has no Parental Rights (got a letter from a solicitor to confirm this). So here in Scotland I am treated as having sole custody and his permition is never needed. We have been living here since 2009, so over 12 years now. We got the EUSS in 2019. I would like to get her the citixenship, but my understanding is that I can't use the MN1 form for her to register her. So I thought ok, I will apply to citizenship (didn't want to initially) and include her. But having read more, it seems like I can't as her father is abroad?! So to me, reading the guidance it seems like they don't consider single parent families at all. So not sure if I can include her on my application with the MN1 form with the discretion application. But then I might need father's consent, however, as I quoted the guidance, it is condradictory for me. So no clue what I need to do.
            Oh and on the top of that, I found out that as she is German, we might need to get the permission form Germany to retain her German citizenship before we apply for the British. Again German guidance is very unclear, and there is little to no info on minors at all

            Thank you so much for your help.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Monka View Post
              Thank you so very much for the replies. I am so so stressed about this as the more I read, the less I seem to know and understand.
              So yes, we are talking about two separate children here.

              So the MN1 form question relates to my UK born 4 year old. His father is NOT on the birth certificate, so this should be strainght forward.
              Morning,

              Indeed it should be, if the child officially only has one parent, then only one parent would need to consent.


              Originally posted by Monka View Post
              I spoke to the Passport Office and the advisor said as I didn't have every year in the 5 yrs prior to his birth more than 8k income and as I was on some benefits, he will not be be eligible for the passport as British. They also refered me to the Treaty Rights document Link
              It does say no receipt of benefits. Of course if he were eligible that would be fab, as I would happily save 1000£, however at the moment the MN1 seems a more straight forward thing.
              The bullet point that mentions benefits is a bit misleading and has always been the source of much confusion. It reads:

              • A passport / document showing a UK Residence Card or Registration Certificate issued five years before the child’s birth and a letter confirming that the parent(s) were not receiving benefits during that period;
              This is just ONE option to show the parent exercised treaty rights as a worker, and one hardly anyone has been able to rely on, since the DWP doesn't usually issue such letters in the first place, as you can't prove a negative. It's possible to obtain a letter confirming you did receive benefits during a certain period, but not the other way round, since the DWP would simply have no records when someone never made a claim, it's a bit like asking someone you never worked for, to write a letter saying you never worked for them!

              Furthermore, most EEA nationals probably never applied for a registration certificate in the first place, since they were never required for any practical purposes, and residence cards were only issued to non EEA nationals, who can't exercise treaty rights themselves, so it would have to be their EEA national sponsor, usually a spouse, who was working.

              And if someone was working, it should be possible to provide more sensible and more easily obtainable evidence than this, such as NI records and HMRC employment history, which can go back as long as you need, for example, I can see my NI records all the way back to '84 when my NIN was issued!

              So this silly little bullet point is rather pointless, and one of those absurd little things the government sometimes comes up with, which help very little yet create a lot of confusion.

              I am the Site Manager and Webmaster, please refer to our Admin Team, Roles and Responsibilities. If you think we have helped in any way, please support us so we can keep helping others secure their status, it is now more important than ever now EEA nationals are subject to the same immigration requirements as non EEA nationals and require proof of valid status in the UK.

              Comment


              • #8
                Now we have addressed the benefits bit and got it out of the way, we can get down to business. Under the EEA Regulations, in order to be regarded as a worker, your employment had to be "genuine and effective". This has nothing to do with benefits, since there are many people who work full time and thus, their employment is genuine and effective, yet still qualify for working tax credits, which is a benefit when income isn't enough to make ends meet. This is quite common with families with several children. On the other hand, many people whose employment wasn't genuine and effective, notably students and stay-at-home parents who worked part-time, never claimed any benefits, since full-time students are not normally entitled to them, other than in limited circumstances, and stay-at-home parents are often supported by their working partners.

                Rather ironically, "genuine and effective" work is actually required for EEA nationals to be entitled to benefits, unless they have another right to reside, which includes permanent residence (PR status, acquired automatically after 5 years exercising treaty rights) and ILR, including settled status. To be able to claim out of work benefits, such as the old jobseekers allowance (now incorporated into UC), they were expected to have been in genuine and effective employment to be entitled to it, and this is much the same in order to qualify for in-work benefits, as noted here: EEA Nationals - 'Genuine and effective work' definition - Entitledto

                ...where you'll see:
                What is genuine and effective work?

                If you have not earned an average of £184 (in 2021/22) per week over 3 months, a benefits decision maker will need to consider whether your work is “effective and genuine” (or was effective and genuine if you are claiming as someone who retains worker status or self-employed status). You may need specialist help to put your case forward.

                The decision maker will take into account all the relevant factors and come to an overall view. Some factors will be more relevant to employed workers and some are more relevant to self-employed people or small company owners. The factors include:
                • Whether the work is or was regular or intermittent (regular work will be favoured). A zero hours contract can count as effective and genuine work if the person gets reasonably regular hours, but if work is only sporadic with long periods when the person’s services are not required it is less likely they will be accepted as a worker.
                • The period of employment (in general longer periods would be favoured. However a short period of work with long hours that was terminated unexpectedly might also be perceived favourably).
                • The intended period of employment at the outset (if the work was intended to be long term, but was terminated by the employer unexpectedly and/or the worker became unwell unexpectedly this would be taken into consideration).
                • The number of hours.
                • The level of earnings.
                • The economic value of the work to the employer. This can include performing a useful role for a public sector or charitable organisation – it doesn’t have to mean profitable value. Economic value can be explained as an employer having a task that needs doing and they are prepared to pay someone to do it.
                • Who is the employer and what is their line of business.
                • Whether the person has a proper employment contract and entitlement to things like sick pay and holiday pay – especially if they belong to a team of employees with similar terms.
                Other factors that will be considered

                If the decision maker believes your work is on such a small scale as to be marginal and ancillary, they will conclude that it is not effective and genuine.

                Voluntary work for no payment or material reward does not qualify. You don’t have to receive all of your payment in the form of money – for example, an au pair who receives accommodation, full board and a small cash wage might still be in effective and genuine work.

                ‘Cash-in-hand’ work might qualify in certain circumstances if there is evidence of the work taking place (e.g. payslips, some kind of work agreement). Even trafficked people who have carried out forced labour can be regarded as doing effective and genuine work if there is evidence of some kind of remuneration – perhaps partly in the form of food and accommodation.

                Self-employment might take time to gather momentum and generate a useful amount of earnings – it is accepted that self-employed people will have to invest a lot of time and perhaps money building up their business, but there might come a time when the prospects of turning a profit are so remote that the activity will be seen as marginal and ancillary.

                I am the Site Manager and Webmaster, please refer to our Admin Team, Roles and Responsibilities. If you think we have helped in any way, please support us so we can keep helping others secure their status, it is now more important than ever now EEA nationals are subject to the same immigration requirements as non EEA nationals and require proof of valid status in the UK.

                Comment


                • #9
                  As can be seen above, the criteria for work to be regarded as "genuine and effective" can be rather complex. Now if you look at this post: Low earnings, part-time work and intermittent work

                  ...you'll see:
                  The requirement is that your work needs to be 'genuine and effective'.

                  There is no minimum earnings requirement. However, the Home Office has taken it upon themselves to examine your case a bit more closely if your income falls below the NI threshold. You do not fail because you are under some threshold, but they may scrutinise the 'genuineness and effectiveness' a bit more.

                  The thresholds have been increasing over the years, you can find historical data for previous years in this table: Rates and allowances: National Insurance contributions - GOV.UK.

                  The relevant threshold is the Primary Threshold, when you start paying NICs, however, you should also be able to work out whether you earned enough by looking at your payslips and P60s, where you will see whether you had NICs taken off your salary or not.

                  Although some people got PR certification on the basis of working part-time and earning below the NI threshold, we cannot recommend following this criteria for citizenship applications, since the fee is considerably higher than the PR application fee and non refundable.
                  The post above was originally written for people applying for PR cards, who had to show exactly the same as parents need to show to apply for a British passport on the basis of treaty rights, which is that they exercised treaty rights for a continuous 5 year period.

                  Things to note are:
                  • Although there is no set earmings amount, the NIC threshold was often used to determine whether work was genuine and effective, people who earned enough to pay NICs were considered as workers;
                  • The NIC thresholds have been increasing over time, the relevant thresholds were the historical ones that were in place at the time the employment took place, not the current ones;
                  • As per the last point above, some of our members got PR cards issued despite earning below the thresholds. As the PR card application fee was just £65, we used to say they should give it a shot, however, it is no longer possible to apply for them, and most people referring to that criteria these days are citizenship applicants trying to figure out whether they met the criteria for lawful residence under EU rules before being granted settled or pre-settled status, hence the warning.
                  However, as the passport application fee isn't much higher than the £65 PR fee, I'd say it's still worth a shot, the worst thing that can happen is that the application is refused and you lose the passport fee, however, this fee is a tiny fraction of the regi$tration fee, and the option to register the child as British remains open till the child turns 18!



                  I am the Site Manager and Webmaster, please refer to our Admin Team, Roles and Responsibilities. If you think we have helped in any way, please support us so we can keep helping others secure their status, it is now more important than ever now EEA nationals are subject to the same immigration requirements as non EEA nationals and require proof of valid status in the UK.

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Originally posted by Monka View Post
                    So I moved to the UK as a single parent with my now 17 yo in 2009. I have been living here ever since. I was working: was employed, or employed and self-employed, studied too (part time courses in 2014/2015, got SAAS as a Scottish resident and fee paid partialy by myself, but didn't have that whatever health insurance as I was working and paying NI and I never knew I would have needed one, after all I was habitually resident in the UK). I have P60, self assesment, the NI contributions since 2009. But I was on lower income, so had tax credits and housing benefit some of the time. My income was around £8000 in 16, and over £11000 in 2017. However the years before that it was below £8000.
                    See above.



                    Originally posted by Monka View Post
                    Son was born in 2017. We got settled status in 2019.
                    Don't know if this helps.
                    As settled status was granted after his birth, it wouldn't help the passport application which would need to be under treaty rights as previously covered, but it is a requirement for registration, that the parent has ILR.


                    I am the Site Manager and Webmaster, please refer to our Admin Team, Roles and Responsibilities. If you think we have helped in any way, please support us so we can keep helping others secure their status, it is now more important than ever now EEA nationals are subject to the same immigration requirements as non EEA nationals and require proof of valid status in the UK.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Dear Site Admin,

                      thank you for all this information.
                      So based on what I have written above about my work situation, do you think it is more likely that I pass the criteria then not to?
                      If I apply, can you help me what proof and how many I need to supply to evidence that I exercised my treaty rights? What would be the best evidences?
                      I can download my NI records (since 2009), but also requested it a few days ago so should get it per post soon. Should I use this?

                      Then should I use the P60 for each year, and there is one year where I got 2 p45 and one p60, so I just include all that. I was self empolyed in this said year so could includemy tax return/self assessment. What else?

                      Then my other question is, my son was born in March 2017, so just before the beginning of the new financial year. So it means I need to supply evidence from March 2012, so that would only mean a March payslip, or evidence for the whole financial year of 2011/12??

                      My worry is that this application will take a long time. I need to get his citizenship sorted by April/May next year. So if this takes ages then I might not have enough time for his registration

                      And the last issue is his name, that the advisor on the phone pointed out to me. What do I do about this? On his British BC he has 3 first names, let's say Tom Lee John. On his Hungarian BC he also has the same 3 names. However, on his Hungarian passport he only has 2, Tom Lee, because there wasn't enough space for more. When I inquired, the authority said they only write 2 on passports due to lack of space. Now the ladie said it was going to be a problem as there is a discrepancy between the BC and passport, so they won't be able to issue the British passport based on this.
                      Any idea how to tackle this??


                      Thank you so much!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Monka View Post
                        Dear Site Admin,

                        thank you for all this information.
                        So based on what I have written above about my work situation, do you think it is more likely that I pass the criteria then not to?
                        If I apply, can you help me what proof and how many I need to supply to evidence that I exercised my treaty rights?
                        Morning,

                        You need to provide the documents requested in Table B of the Treaty Rights Guidance, ignoring the one we already discussed regarding letters confirming no benefits. You don't need to provide all of them, they are different options.

                        Originally posted by Monka View Post
                        What would be the best evidences?
                        I can download my NI records (since 2009), but also requested it a few days ago so should get it per post soon. Should I use this?
                        You can use NI records IF they show NICs from paid employment, rather than just full/not full years as per the first thing you see, since you can also get NIC credits when you claim certain benefits, a full year doesn't mean you were exercising treaty rights.


                        Originally posted by Monka View Post
                        Then should I use the P60 for each year, and there is one year where I got 2 p45 and one p60, so I just include all that.
                        Yes, P60s are their preferred form of evidence.


                        Originally posted by Monka View Post
                        I was self empolyed in this said year so could includemy tax return/self assessment. What else?
                        Table B also has a section for self-employment:
                        • Registration of the business
                        • Evidence of a lease on a business premises
                        • Invoices
                        • Evidence of payment of national insurance contributions
                        • Self Assessment tax forms or any other evidence of self-employment activities during the relevant period

                        I am the Site Manager and Webmaster, please refer to our Admin Team, Roles and Responsibilities. If you think we have helped in any way, please support us so we can keep helping others secure their status, it is now more important than ever now EEA nationals are subject to the same immigration requirements as non EEA nationals and require proof of valid status in the UK.

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Originally posted by Monka View Post
                          Then my other question is, my son was born in March 2017, so just before the beginning of the new financial year. So it means I need to supply evidence from March 2012, so that would only mean a March payslip, or evidence for the whole financial year of 2011/12??
                          You only need to show you exercised treaty rights for 5 years before the birth, however, if you do have, say, a P60 covering the whole financial year before the 6 years, i.e. for a 6th year, it won't hurt.


                          Originally posted by Monka View Post
                          My worry is that this application will take a long time. I need to get his citizenship sorted by April/May next year. So if this takes ages then I might not have enough time for his registration
                          I don't know why you think you need him to be British by April/May next year, and nor do passport applications take that long.


                          Originally posted by Monka View Post
                          And the last issue is his name, that the advisor on the phone pointed out to me. What do I do about this? On his British BC he has 3 first names, let's say Tom Lee John. On his Hungarian BC he also has the same 3 names. However, on his Hungarian passport he only has 2, Tom Lee, because there wasn't enough space for more. When I inquired, the authority said they only write 2 on passports due to lack of space. Now the ladie said it was going to be a problem as there is a discrepancy between the BC and passport, so they won't be able to issue the British passport based on this.
                          Any idea how to tackle this??

                          Thank you so much!
                          This should be easy enough to explain. Make the application and see what they say. It's worth it since the fee is just £49! Nearly a grand le$$ than regi$tration...

                          I am the Site Manager and Webmaster, please refer to our Admin Team, Roles and Responsibilities. If you think we have helped in any way, please support us so we can keep helping others secure their status, it is now more important than ever now EEA nationals are subject to the same immigration requirements as non EEA nationals and require proof of valid status in the UK.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X